in this particular case of newbs being newbs i am talking about battle grangering.  today nand and i got into it because he was starting to kick people for doing this.  in other words in my way of seeing it he was kicking newbs or being newbies and playing a GAME in a way they find fun.

now i have been told that you old timers who made these rules for the pure trem servers know better and so you made them.  and i probably agree, you know better but ummm we dont and even i whom is not entirely newbie any more think there is a tactically sound way to use a adv granger in a battle function-.  and complete newbs who dont know better see the granger as a larger slower version of the dretch with a ranged attack to boot.  though it is slow it has more hit pints and i am not sure but i think it's melee attack is stronger too.  these bonuses are outweighed by it's lack of maneuverability but newbs dont know this and i think it can be gotten around by finding places to ambush people with the ranged attack which slows humans down.


either way i am suck and tired of people downing on newbies because they are new.  bitching at them wont help and if they dont get to try stuff how are they going to learn what work what doesnt and how to make what works work

They get a warning not to do it.
Then they get !denybuilt, which kills them and denies them the ability to be a granger again.

Newbs are fine when they listen when more experienced players and/or admins tell them not to do something. When they keep doing it anyway, then they've crossed the line.

When I'm holding a team up by myself and I tell someone not to build teslas I damn hope they listen because it's clear to anyone that hits tab that I may somewhat know what I'm talking about, and if they're new enough to be making such a mistake, then they know they're newbs and need to listen. If they're new and don't listen, to hell with them.

They're not being downed because they're new. They're being downed because they're new AND arrogant/stupid enough to think they know better, OR they don't care about their team.

just giving an order isnt enough.  so you tell them not to so what they dont know why you told them not to and mabye they just figured you meant niot where they built them last time.  doesnt matter if you have all the kills on the team or you been playing for 500 years it isnt enough to just say dont do that

Anyways, Issues with battle grangers:

1) Grangers are fat and slow, tend to end up feeding a lot -- they can't get away and they can't really dodge
2) Grangers are virtually unable to do any meaninful damage. The spit does about 2 and only slows when it hits (thanks medic), and the main attack still takes like 5 headshots to kill someone. They are simply not effective.
3) Noobs who are battlegrangering are wasting time that they could be using to master attacking aliens.
4) Grangers, no matter how good, will block other aliens. If you're trying to attack with one, you will either block (due to slowness) or get shot (due to getting out of the way while humans are chasing an escaping alien)
5) The slowing effect is only if it hits, and it's not really that big of a deal. A good human will dodge it easily, and a slowed human is still pretty quick while sprinting. Besides, the granger doesn't tend to get evos for it.
6) Grangers are not designed to be attackers! They are builders.
7) Trem 1.2 reduces their speed further to help encourage people not to battlegranger. Don't waste time learning the skill if it's going to be pretty much obsoleted in 1.2.

Anyone have any other points?

The good newbs will ask for clarification / explanation. There's not time to type Garoth's 7 bullet points every time someone's battle grangering. You just have to tell them not to and hope that they give a damn what you say enough to either listen or listen and ask for reasoning.

When I was new to this game I found the best players and specced them whenever I could. I tried to do whatever they said related to gameplay because they knew better. What in the world would ever make me think otherwise? I'm sorry but I expect others to at least make some attempt to listen to more experienced teammates. Playing "however you have fun" is great and all in games where you don't have teammates but when other people are relying on you, you need to try to become better to help them and ignoring them won't do that.

the point of this post isnt just battle grangering it is then right of newbs to do stupid newb stuff and learn by experience the way most of you did when you and your buddies first played.  it aint my fault or any other newbs that they just head of it and started playing and people should be allowed to try shit.  unfortunately everyone already her before us has gotten amnesia or something since they forgot how they learned.  if someone wants to tryyyy battle grangering it should be thier right to make the atempt and find out that it doesnt work via experience same goes with building tesla and anythiing else new comers tend to do while trying o figure stuff out

I don't have amnesia. I just very clearly stated how I learned basic tenents of the game and it was by watching and listening, not trial and error.

You're right that it's nobody's fault that they don't know any better when they first show up. In some cases, they've been actively taught incorrect things from playing on servers with modified rules. As I've said, it IS their fault when they refuse to listen to their team. Even if there's not one of us around as an admin to warn and kick, they're going to get votekicked for battle grangering and for building badly.

You're fortunate enough to both play here, where we give you the benefit of a warning and will answer you when you ask for help, and to be included in a clan of people that know at least somewhat what they're doing. You should make use of these things instead of debating your right to actively hurt your team because you refuse to listen.

yeeeeaaaah well i will defend my right to experiment to the very end it is in my opinion the best way to learn whenever it can be applied.  telling someone the granger is slow (as i admited in my first post) is not the same as seeing how ineffective it is at dodgeing even the slowest shot alive.  the latter can only be experienced anmd in the absence of a training server or a place where newbs congregate there isnt any other choice but to try new things in the presence of experienced players.


P. S.  btw slowing the granger even more is a baaaaaad idea since it will essentially cripple and or prevent aliens from moving thier base

it was slowed to stop egg spam lasting hours, and aliens are still way more mobile than humans.  play mgdev and see for your self.

And it basically comes down to RTFM.  TFM sucks, so read the forums etc.  If you don't want to do that, more experienced players are the next best thing.

The point is, smart people make mistakes, and learn.  n00bs make mistakes and don't learn.   Genius' learn from everyone else's mistakes.

whats rtfm? no actually newbs are people who are new and the wisest people try everything they can at least once

(RTFM = read the fucking manual.)

Fine.  Go get paper to give you a gun, and shoot your self in the head.  Got to try it once.
You ever decon?  Nade spam?  Got to try it once?
Hey, I never robbed a bank! this sounds like a good excuse!

Also, I never failed any of my modules...  That's something I could do easy.  But I think I'll listen to all the people who have been here before who say resits are hell.

you know i hate it when people take a philosophy which is meant to be used as a good thing and stretch it to the extreme when it becomes a perverse twisted image of the intent of the message.  i read the tremulous manual it has practically no information on it and specifically nothing tactically useful

as for the forums i only just today learned this one exists at any rate it is far more fun attempting stuff then sifting through heaps of posts in a forum

The servers run on the idea that your right to have fun does not out weigh the right of other to have fun.  If your spoiling the game for everyone else, they're going to get pissed.
You repeatedly spoil the game, and don't care that your spoiling other peoples fun, then its up to us to fix it.  Its better we deny build someone, and say why, than they get kick voted.

true it isnt right for someone to ruin the fun of others but this happens anyway with people who constantly feed because they are massively outskilled and yet dont want to sit around bored all day should we invent a deny dretch command for that? you cant deny this one it is a almost constant complaint and even i have been accused of it simply because i am there to play not sit around getting boredom evo's.  i am however normally outskilled by those i am trying to kill and so die far more often then i actually manage to kill. 

but then how else am i supposed to learn right? i have no other choice but to try what ever idea comes into mind and see which ones work best and discard the ones that dont work or dont work well

You may be operating under an illusion.  When I started playing, shortly after standalone came out, admins would kick you for battle grangering.  Maybe the real, pre-standalone old timers didn't have to deal with it, but it was certainly a problem when I started.

!warn then !denybuild seems reasonable.  Vote kick if admins are lacking.  !kick if they just will not give it up.

Personally, I'm pretty lenient with new builders,etc.  Often they will try base ideas that old times wouldn't even consider trying.  Usually those bases fail, but sometimes you'll see an idea in there that can be useful.  Some ideas just need to die though.  Constantly wanting a forward base, etc.

The care and feeding of new players is important for tremulous, it helps to create a better, more skilled playing environment.  Letting new players in thinking they can outbuild everyone on day 2 is just silly.  I try to use denybuild lightly, but when I do, well, its just for one map.  Often I will let them build though.  Funny, the battle grangers do much, much less actual building than you may realize.  I've watched grangers hang around base for some time, building the occasional doorway egg or floor trapper, seemingly oblivious to what is happening, then get bored and run into battle.  Lots of times battle grangers just want the spit so they don't have to get too close, which of course they will.

To me, feeding is altogether different.  Everyone feeds at times, the good players realize it and change their strategy.  New players don't and make the game more challenging for all of us   New builders really can sink a match though, even a couple matches if they continue being stubborn.

wow, thats pretty disjointed, sorry