After reading some discussion on the topic of noobs, I want to pose a question to the trem community. In a previous topic ("the right of noobs to be noobs") there was some discussion about noobs and whether or not they should be allowed to experiment with the game or not in stupid ways.

To summarize (my apologies if I misrepresent anyone's opinion/statements), the original poster argued that noobs should be allowed to experiment with stupid things like battlegrangering because it was an effective method of learning the ropes. The main (coherent) objection against this was that sometimes said experimentation interferes with other poeple's enjoyment of the game. Which is a valid point - Newbs should have the freedom to be newbs within bounds. One person's freedom can't overwrite someone else's. It was also pointed out that some newbs are either unable or unwilling to learn, and are thus slowing everyone else down, which is true - some people are just stubborn asses. But there are some good newbs - those who learn by listening and watching the pros. Another point was that at some point, it just comes down to RTFM. (Me: yet we all know the terrible state of Tremulous documentation. The MG is already working on a solution to that.) Other people remenisced(sp?) about times when they wither were newbs or saw a noob do something stupid.

Garoth brought up the idea of having different skill-level servers, separating the players into classes, but argued that such a system would break apart, hence why the MG servers are mixed. His comments made me think: Some people have a really hard time getting into the game and learning, but at the same time, we who currently play can't lower our standards and have less fun just to help newbs all the time. We need some sort of way to teach new players, but as Garoth pointed out, different skill-level servers would probably not work because it would be impossible to maintain.

SO. Here's what I propose: MG should start a server for Newbs Only. Just one server. It can be a place basically for people to experiment and blow stuff up with grenades and battlegranger to their hearts content without worrying about getting in the way of serious players. Make the server safe as possible: have an admin on as much as possible. Have a few experienced players hang out there to help people and explain stuff. Keep it restricted to the basic maps. Add a few bots for people to play against when no one else is there. And above all, NO SERIOUS GAMING. If we put enough effort into it, we could make it a really positive learning environment for new players and a good way to ease them into the game gently AND keep them off the other servers at the same time.

So two questions:
1. What are your thoughts on how to make such a server work?
2. Any other ideas on how to feed and care for new players?


Suggestions/comments/thoughts/flames/ranting all welcome.

*/me puts on flame-proof battlesuit

Steve

Why its not going to work:
A) Some good player comes in just to killwhore, scares everyone off
B) No admins all the time -> Don't know how to kill bases, evolve, that you need to sell the rifle to get a new weapon, etc
C) Aliens will have a very big advantage, you don't have to aim as much
D) Giant campfest because humans are afraid to leave their base
E) Giant feedfest
F) Admins will get bored because i) they don't play ii) they try to to pwn the crap out of the others

To the best of my knowledge, there are no bots for this game. If they exist, they can't be very good. So that idea is out.

Putting all the new players onto a server without any major modifications, will result in them not actually learning how to play tremulous. They will learn how to blow things up, how to battle granger, how to feed, how to bleed, and how to grief.

Putting a NEWB tag on a server is an open invitation to skilled douche bags to log on, and ruin it. There are a lot of players out there that honestly believe that racking up kills is what makes this game work. To have a server full of basically defenseless players open at all times, is like telling a cartoon character not to push the flashing red button.

Being an admin on that server would be a really boring job. You never get to play, you're constantly kicking assholes, and you're constantly reminding people not to do the same thing over and over.



I think the best idea for a newb server is a continuation of the MG demo project that barely got off the ground. Have someone experienced create "situations" on the server that can be controlled automatically or by an admin if there's one on. Create situations with base layouts, and restrictions of certain weapons/classes.

For instance:

Create a situation where three humans have to build/repair, while three aliens(various classes) attack. Humans are unable to buy weapons in this situation, instead relying on repairing damaged turrets and teslas for protection. This situation would only last say two minutes, with a 35-45 second intermission where people can comment on what people did wrong.

Another situation would involve having some nodes in a hallway, and requiring humans to work together to progress to the alien base. The aliens would be defending their base, but the catch is they take damage when on they're on the ground outside a specified area. This would teach humans to work together, and aliens how to wallwalk.

Other situation ideas could be to teach specific weapon or class use. Humans can only buy pulse rifles, and aliens can only be marauders. Or something to that effect.


Setting up the situations so that only limited number of players can participate at one time will limit the amount of asshole griefers who are too impatient to wait their turn. Spectating players can watch how other new players deal with situations, and can take notes or make suggestions. Experienced players can give directions.



All of these suggestions would take an incredible amount of work, but would be a lot more beneficial to new players by actually teaching them the game instead of just letting them "screw around."

If the modifications were made to the game to support situations in general instead of specific ones, it would make the creation of new scenarios easy. We could open up the process to members of the community, so they could create their own.

Good ideas Munroe. I don't know much about modding, but is it even possible to do something like what you're talking about in a mod? Or does it require more code being added to the trem program itself? Some servers are already altered in rather... unique... ways to do things that are not normal, so perhaps there are some ways to make a server more newb-friendly?

Perhaps a newb server could have certain hours where an admin is online and overseeing so that the server is active and safe, and at other times is locked/not-running/open-but-with-no-one-there. I don't necessarily think that being an admin on such a server would be boring; you could even join in and play to demonstrate stuff, but not be a killwhore. Limiting the amount of players to say, 8, would go a long way towards keeping the killwhores out.

I really like the scenarios idea though. It could work.

steve
Posted on: February 12, 2008, 02:46:41 PM

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Also, perhaps it could become common practice in games that an player who puts a specific and unique tag on their name (like a guild tag) marking them as a new player is given much leniency and patience while playing in game. Let new players tag themselves as new players, and by doing so they let the rest of the community know that they need help and want to learn and listen.

so for instance imagine ingame:

* {NEWB}HaveMercyOnMe has joined the game.
* }MGR{.evets@ubuntu was killed by TEAMMATE {NEWB}HaveMercyOnMe (did 100 of 100 damage max)
* {NEWB}HaveMercyOnMe says: Sorry, what just happened? I was trying to switch to my grenade.
* }MGR{.evets@ubuntu says: That's alright, grenades are single-use items that you use by middle-clicking while the grenade is selected
* }MGR{.evets@ubuntu says: You buy them in addition to your gun and they are thrown instantly when you use them. Don't throw them inside the base! You have been warned!
* }MGR{.evets@ubuntu says: They're good for blowing up alien structures.
* {NEWB}HaveMercyOnMe says: Ah... 'k thx. Now I get it. sry won't happn again.

...whereas if the player did NOT have the {NEWB} tag, I would warn and then probably call a votekick. But beause I see that they're a newb, I have mercy on them and explain before yelling.

The tag would let us identify player who are obviously new and are willing to listen and learn so that we can be nic to them and also be MORE strict with the non-tagged base-destroyers.

Just a thought.

steve

When I first start playing any game...
I read the manual.

Or at least, skim it.
When I feel like I am interested in the game after playing it. I "test" a few things, ranges, damage, cost, etc. Mainly by browsing resources like forum, various wiki's and such. Learning ingame is good for some small/quick things, like a base layout. and how to strafe jump a bit.

The 1.1 manual packaged with the game is rather useless.



Training demos with voice overs would be nice for 1.2. Also, heashot and range training modes could be included for aliens.

I still think the grenade should work like any other weapon: You select it, and then you click to throw it.
The {NEWB} tag idea will need a lot of publicity to work, and people don't really like to be called a newb/noob.

The tag will probably cause noobs to be victims of even more attacks and kick votes on join.

Griefers could use the {NEWB} tag to their advantage so that they could ruin a game twice. The first time they can say it's a mistake.

Yeah, and like tyranis already said, I can already see the "{NEWB}Joe has connected" "[ASS]Jack called a vote: Kick player {NEWB}Joe" "[ASS]Jack: He's a newb."

Going back to my training idea, now that I've though more about it:
Allow a player to be any alien class and have a bot. The player then attacks the human and the will be told how much damage they are doing and if they are getting headshots. Also, the bot could move in a somewhat random pattern in a relatively open area a range indicator system could be implemented.

Heh, training someone by giving 'em a bot?  I smell a system that can easily abused.

I learned by spectating and asking questions.  That's really the easiest way to learn and understand.

Personally, I haven't seen a good suggestion here yet, except my own in the other thread...

1) We can't have a dedicated noob server, again -- segregation fails in many ways.
2) We can't have scenario maps -- a) ton of work b) logically flawed: if a noob is too nooby to play the game, they are too nooby to get tjw's mod, turn on downloads, find a training server, download the qvm and learn something to boot. It's a good idea, but -- no way.
3) {NEWB} tags would never catch on in a positive way. Even MG can't do that. The best we can do there is put that as some kind of message when you log on without tjw's mod. Even still, it'll be abused.
4) We're not programming aimbots. Also, again, that would require a clientside change (most likely) and confuse the heck out of noobs when they go to a real server. "Oh, but it doesn't aim for me... I'll go download Nullify"

So, I say we keep doing what we've more or less always been doing:

 - Put up a mixed server
 - Put up a MOTD/connect message saying "If you're confused about something, ask someone from MG, NULL, NT, or E. Do this before testing it out yourself if it could do something bad. Just admit your new-ness and you won't have any problems."
 - Help noobs out whenever they ask, which is something I've been doing for years now.
 - Occasionally, when you get some one or two people who you're helping a lot, ask them to come to another server which is empty (like PT3 most of the time). Train them there. This is also something that I've been doing for years with good results.

So in short, we train noobs as they come. The good ones will ask, the bad ones will be like "yo, u deservd it bich." They can be kicked. That's always been how MG has operated, and it is how it should continue. Meanwhile, I'll keep slowly working on the documentation. If only we had an MG member who was unlazy enough to run the Demo Project. For some reason, the leaders of that one keep flaking off.

It's tough to get a multi-member commitment for upwards of an hour a few times a week. The first demo we ever got finished took nearly 12 takes, and about an hour or so of work(of actual filming). And that was just spawning and killing a few aliens.

The few times afterwards I did try and get something together, I couldn't find enough actors to participate.

I think this might be a better venture with co-leaders or something. I'm willing to give it another go, but I would need some backup.

The one demo we did get filmed was pretty well done, and I think the others would be massively beneficial.

Ahh those were the days!

When I had free time to do cool MG projects. Even I get tired of just shouting at people all day long.
You should totally pick it up again Munroe. As of today I might have some free time on Sundays now!

Khalsa